Frood
a true bro
In the words of bo Burnham, "maybe god does not believe in you"
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sugarcube
Sad emo bitch
I feel that deeply. I think it would be comforting and I also just wish that there was really a reason for everything. But if there's a God I hope he's forgiving for all of us who've royally fucked shit up. The logical sife of me can't believe
sugarcube
Sad emo bitch
I think he does and he wants to scorch my ass real bad. I've definitely earned a seat in hell. I don't think there's any amount of confessions or hail Mary's to save my soul
We Want Eazy
God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives.
A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up
You must wager (it is not optional).
Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
But some cannot believe. They should then 'at least learn your inability to believe...' and 'Endeavour then to convince' themselves.
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That was written by one of the great philosophers (and mathematicians) of the 17th century, you barbarian.
Yes, I know. That quote and weak ass logic is terrible, and one of the reasons the blight on humanity that is organized religion still exists.
I cannot claim to know there is or isn't a god, but I can unequivocally show that there is no reason to organize around the thought. More damage to our species has been done as a result of this tendency than ANY of the good, with the possible exception of the music, and it needs to stop.
Let's do another weak ass thought experiment: god was so disappointed with humanity in antiquity that he sent a gigantic flood and hit the reset button. Where the fuck was he on the Armenian genocide? Khmer Rouge? (Of course) the Holocaust? None of this should be the subject of angry, Old Testament bullshit either, this is part of that whole new deal...loving god and whatnot.
At best, BEST, god would be an absentee landlord. In reality, if he existed, he is absolutely negligent and unworthy of worship. Pascal didn't have the information we have, he didn't have the perspective we have.
If god exists, we should tip our caps and be on our way. If he doesn't, no loss. What we NEED to do is stop acting in any way that hints our "knowing" him, his wants, needs, or commandments. 2000+ organized religions, ubiquitous communication ability around the planet, and yet...no proof. No one time coming down here going "hey, fucknuts, I'm real. THIS is what I want. Jews, get over yourselves. You're nice people but calling yourself the Chosen has really pissed off everyone for a long fucking time. Christians? You're unbelievably hypocritical, like simply astounding. Muslims? A fucking meteor? THAT's your shtick? And everyone else...worshipping cows, elephant people, chicks with a billion arms...rivers, sky, mountains...calm the fuck down. Here's what I want: be nice to each other. That's it. Be nice to each other. I'll be back in another 5000 years to see how badly you fuck this up again."
...and STILL there is no reason, at all, to build temples and churches and rapey organizations in his name.
None.
I cannot claim to know there is or isn't a god, but I can unequivocally show that there is no reason to organize around the thought. More damage to our species has been done as a result of this tendency than ANY of the good, with the possible exception of the music, and it needs to stop.
Let's do another weak ass thought experiment: god was so disappointed with humanity in antiquity that he sent a gigantic flood and hit the reset button. Where the fuck was he on the Armenian genocide? Khmer Rouge? (Of course) the Holocaust? None of this should be the subject of angry, Old Testament bullshit either, this is part of that whole new deal...loving god and whatnot.
At best, BEST, god would be an absentee landlord. In reality, if he existed, he is absolutely negligent and unworthy of worship. Pascal didn't have the information we have, he didn't have the perspective we have.
If god exists, we should tip our caps and be on our way. If he doesn't, no loss. What we NEED to do is stop acting in any way that hints our "knowing" him, his wants, needs, or commandments. 2000+ organized religions, ubiquitous communication ability around the planet, and yet...no proof. No one time coming down here going "hey, fucknuts, I'm real. THIS is what I want. Jews, get over yourselves. You're nice people but calling yourself the Chosen has really pissed off everyone for a long fucking time. Christians? You're unbelievably hypocritical, like simply astounding. Muslims? A fucking meteor? THAT's your shtick? And everyone else...worshipping cows, elephant people, chicks with a billion arms...rivers, sky, mountains...calm the fuck down. Here's what I want: be nice to each other. That's it. Be nice to each other. I'll be back in another 5000 years to see how badly you fuck this up again."
...and STILL there is no reason, at all, to build temples and churches and rapey organizations in his name.
None.
Frood
a true bro
I don't even think pascal believed in that craptastic logic by the time he died. I could refute that wager when I was 15, you can't tell me you find it convincing.
Yes, 10 years of edgy internet atheism trumps centuries of philosophy and theology. I deleted my previous comment because trying to discuss things like that is impossible online. Even here.
Frood
a true bro
If you want an actual refutation of Pascal's Wager...
It's not a two sided coin, because it's not "God is real" vs "there is no God", it's "there is no God" vs. interpretations of the word of God, many of which are mutually exclusive. If you follow Catholic catechism, you necessarily anger the Hindu gods, Allah, slightly piss off the Catholic God if it turns out the Jews are correct, etc. So it's not a coinflip with "eternal reward" on one side and "eternal damnation" on the other. It's more like a dice roll with a thousand sided die, and if you pick the wrong one then at least a FEW of the other ones are condemning you for it. And at any time, anybody can add another side to the die, and to be consistent with Pascal's wager, you have to consider their interpretation as well.
Furthermore, none of this is proof that there is a God, it's only a cost-benefit analysis to be performed to decide whether or not you should believe as though there is a God, which tosses another wrench in the works. What if there IS a God, and he's upset that I believe in him not only because he has revealed himself to me, but because I think that I'm going to get some reward for being a believer?
It's not a two sided coin, because it's not "God is real" vs "there is no God", it's "there is no God" vs. interpretations of the word of God, many of which are mutually exclusive. If you follow Catholic catechism, you necessarily anger the Hindu gods, Allah, slightly piss off the Catholic God if it turns out the Jews are correct, etc. So it's not a coinflip with "eternal reward" on one side and "eternal damnation" on the other. It's more like a dice roll with a thousand sided die, and if you pick the wrong one then at least a FEW of the other ones are condemning you for it. And at any time, anybody can add another side to the die, and to be consistent with Pascal's wager, you have to consider their interpretation as well.
Furthermore, none of this is proof that there is a God, it's only a cost-benefit analysis to be performed to decide whether or not you should believe as though there is a God, which tosses another wrench in the works. What if there IS a God, and he's upset that I believe in him not only because he has revealed himself to me, but because I think that I'm going to get some reward for being a believer?
My problem with this whole thing is that fero is attempting to push his wrestling with whether to believe back onto people who have decided not to:
It isn't "10 years of edgy internet atheism" in the least. I was raised catholic, served mass, was confirmed, was never molested (and I'm a little unhappy about that, I was a really cute kid), and never once did I see anything in that which made sense. Nothing. They couldn't address any of the paradoxes, the contradictions. They couldn't show any proof at all other than "belief." They would only account for all of the shit in the world by saying "God works in mysterious ways" like that's some kind of fucking insight and not a complete cop-out.
No, this isn't 10 years of edge internet atheism, this is centuries of the bastardization of a concept for power and control, and it is high time we as a species dump it. If God wants back in, he can float his butt down here on a cloud with lightning, or drop out another son from a virgin (stolen from the any number of prior systems) and set us straight. Sermons on the mount can become Twitter feeds, FB can have a whole fucking group!
where's he been for 2000 years, give or take?
We need to move beyond comforting blankets, we need to drop the need for some outside force guiding us to be good. We need to be good because it is the right thing to do, and eternal reward or a better life on the other side...that's empty. It's empty and we need to accept that.
My only regret is not that I won't have eternal life, it's that I live in a time before interstellar space travel. Other than that, I'm trying to enjoy these few trips around the sun the best I can.
Sorry, man, I've known you for a long time and love you like a brother, but that's bullshit. Plain and simple. Centuries before "philosophy and theology" that you are referencing -- and it isn't hard to see you are referencing the centuries of one, Abrahamic, god with a capital G -- were prefaced by centuries of "philosophy and theology" of a billion different other systems of belief. Simply put, you threw that out there and we responded, and now you're not comfortable with the responses.
It isn't "10 years of edgy internet atheism" in the least. I was raised catholic, served mass, was confirmed, was never molested (and I'm a little unhappy about that, I was a really cute kid), and never once did I see anything in that which made sense. Nothing. They couldn't address any of the paradoxes, the contradictions. They couldn't show any proof at all other than "belief." They would only account for all of the shit in the world by saying "God works in mysterious ways" like that's some kind of fucking insight and not a complete cop-out.
No, this isn't 10 years of edge internet atheism, this is centuries of the bastardization of a concept for power and control, and it is high time we as a species dump it. If God wants back in, he can float his butt down here on a cloud with lightning, or drop out another son from a virgin (stolen from the any number of prior systems) and set us straight. Sermons on the mount can become Twitter feeds, FB can have a whole fucking group!
where's he been for 2000 years, give or take?
We need to move beyond comforting blankets, we need to drop the need for some outside force guiding us to be good. We need to be good because it is the right thing to do, and eternal reward or a better life on the other side...that's empty. It's empty and we need to accept that.
My only regret is not that I won't have eternal life, it's that I live in a time before interstellar space travel. Other than that, I'm trying to enjoy these few trips around the sun the best I can.
sugarcube
Sad emo bitch
Not to diminish the value of what you said but I choked a little on my coffee reading that Sermons on the Mount can be Twitter feeds.
I'm a recovering Catholic. I think about how much infinitely happier and guilt free I'd be if I didn't have it forced upon me
I'm a recovering Catholic. I think about how much infinitely happier and guilt free I'd be if I didn't have it forced upon me
Nice.
That kinda is my point, though. It would be super simple for god to set shit straight and it just doesn't happen. So, he either hates us or doesn't exist, at which point I question why I have to sit for an hour, singing songs facing the same direction as everyone else every weekend and giving money.
That kinda is my point, though. It would be super simple for god to set shit straight and it just doesn't happen. So, he either hates us or doesn't exist, at which point I question why I have to sit for an hour, singing songs facing the same direction as everyone else every weekend and giving money.
Frood
a true bro
TBF i did like the singing songs part. I'd love to join choir, but I don't want to go to church to have to do it.
sugarcube
Sad emo bitch
It's a fucking ploy to get your dolla dolla bills.
Why did you say of course after Khmer Rouge?
Frood
a true bro
I think he was saying "of course" before the Holocaust, because it's the poster child for atrocities. He put the (of course) after the punctuation
sugarcube
Sad emo bitch
Thanks for the clarification. I was confused and thought maybe it was a reference to something else
"...and, of course, the Hall of Cost."
Religiousy people get very precious about religion, because they've chosen to work against all rationality and logic. I will not claim that good doesn't come from religion, but I will also very readily claim that the bad that does outweighs the good. Every time, all the time.
Again, I'll try to be a good person. I won't cheat, I won't steal. I won't kick puppies or punch babies. If that isn't good enough, if going out of my way when I can to help other people isn't good enough, then I don't want to be part of it.
It is comforting, but why do we need the comfort? Think about THAT instead of being what you are told to be.
also, who the fuck turned on the thing where backspacing at the beginning of a word also automatically erases the space in front of the previous word? What the shit is this?
Religiousy people get very precious about religion, because they've chosen to work against all rationality and logic. I will not claim that good doesn't come from religion, but I will also very readily claim that the bad that does outweighs the good. Every time, all the time.
Again, I'll try to be a good person. I won't cheat, I won't steal. I won't kick puppies or punch babies. If that isn't good enough, if going out of my way when I can to help other people isn't good enough, then I don't want to be part of it.
It is comforting, but why do we need the comfort? Think about THAT instead of being what you are told to be.
also, who the fuck turned on the thing where backspacing at the beginning of a word also automatically erases the space in front of the previous word? What the shit is this?
Frood
a true bro
I have to wonder what it feels like to believe. It must be so weird. Apparently brain scans of believers praying shows their brains lighting up like crazy