how fast am i gonna get permabanned here...

[chalupa]

Come on, we were having a good discussion here. You can't just discount something because it doesn't mesh with your opinion.

Also, I googled that statistic, and found an article with it and other stats. Check out the one about murder rates going up proportionally to gun ownership.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check

Simple fact of the matter is that guns are dangerous, and more gun ownership leads to a higher level of danger. However, my personal opinion is it is worth the risk, because, simply, I like guns. It has nothing to do with protection, as the data just doesn't support that point of view; it has to do with the fact that I like guns. Same thing with having a fast car...we could all drive around in tanks with governors at 35 miles per hour, but that would suck big time, so I have a coupe with 330hp and sub 5 sec 0-60. I have it because it is cool, even though the risk factors go up. It is up to my personal responsibility to ensure that I don't kill myself or others with my death machine, just as it is that I make sure to do the same with my gun.

I support gun ownership, I just don't support gun owners who pick and choose bullshit logic, disregard the actual data, and patently lie about their reasoning.

 

[Devastation the Almighty]

I have guns because you can't find squirrel meat at Wal-Mart.

 

[Brian]

alright thats enough gunfags get the fuck outta my thread




i think i missed a comma so what sue me



my god, that's probably how nefarious got started. this is his origin story.

 

[chalupa]

No, his origin story starts with his mother drinking a lot while he was in utero.

 

[Nefarious]

No, his origin story starts with his mother drinking a lot while he was in utero.

what about your mother? sh ewas a whore at a circus and she fucke ten clowns into her fucking pussy? clwon car in her pusy say waht? you fuckign SUCK dickhead so go eat shit you bald LOSER

 

[HubbleBubble]

More gun ownership leads to a higher level of danger.

More gun ownership leads to a higher level of danger? And it's worth the risk just because you like guns? Wow, what a bold, ignorant statement. No offense chalupa, you know I like you. Wink wink.

So why is it that in the UK you are more likely to be stabbed with a knife than shot with a gun in America? People in the UK are butchering the hell out of each other, and overall violent crime per capita is higher than it is in America.

But I'm not going to take a stupid stance and try to blame the fluctuation of violence on any one particular statistic within ANY country.

You can't simply say that the reason violent crime has gone down in America is directly attributed to the decrease in gun ownership per household. There are many, many, many factors involved. In order to justify that argument, one must assume that the mere presence or sight of a gun somehow causes some bizarre infestation of violent thoughts or behavior. Total fantasy and I'm surprised anyone still buys into that bullshit, which was a common belief amongst typical liberals in the 80's and 90's.

Why don't you pull up the statistics that show how many of these murders took place because an unstable and potentially violent person (who was already fucked up in the head and capable of violence) bought the weapon and ended up using it in a crime days or years later? In other words, crazy people end up with guns. That will never change. Is it a risk? Sure, which is why I said that the only statistic we need to worry about is that there are violent people in the world and they present a risk. Be prepared. End of story.

The human condition and the violent nature of the world we live in are the causes. Violence originates from within, and a firearm is the quickest, easiest, most convenient and effective tool available for expressing those feelings.

So obviously, owning such a deadly weapon presents risks. If it's the risks you are concerned about, then we can pick apart other little factoid numbers as well. You have a higher risk of burning your house down if you own a stove, or a box of matches. You are more likely to drown at home if you own a pool or a bathtub. Your chances of an accidental fall increase if you have stairs in your house. Your chances of having an accident with a firearm increase 100% versus no firearm in your house at all, even though accidental firearm deaths were less than 1000 in 2010. I'm pretty sure that more people die from accidental falls each year, but so what? Total factoid numbers, all of these!

But as for using a gun in a violent manner, I personally don't have it within my soul to use a gun against an innocent person, and I speak for the average gun owner when I say that. I'm sure you agree. So in other words, within MY situation (call it anecdotal evidence all day, that's irrelevant) as a responsible, sane and non-violent gun owner, possessing a firearm is to my benefit. And I speak for the majority of gun owners who are just like me.

 

[chalupa]

Listen to yourself! You don't speak for anyone, not at all. You only speak for you...such incredible hubris in you!

These aren't "factoids" they are actual statistics, and the statistics say that having a gun in the house is more dangerous for the people in the house. If the gun isn't there, their chances of being killed go down, not just with a gun, but over all.

Are you saying that since the actual facts don't mesh with your stance that you just need to ignore them? Do us all a favor and be honest about this.

I'm honest, I like having guns. I know the risks, I know they have gone up, but I like them, I like shooting them, and I'm going to keep them. At least I'm honest about it, unlike you, my friend. Wink wink.

 

[HubbleBubble]

Listen to yourself! You don't speak for anyone, not at all. You only speak for you...such incredible hubris in you!

These aren't "factoids" they are actual statistics, and the statistics say that having a gun in the house is more dangerous for the people in the house. If the gun isn't there, their chances of being killed go down, not just with a gun, but over all.

Are you saying that since the actual facts don't mesh with your stance that you just need to ignore them? Do us all a favor and be honest about this.

I'm honest, I like having guns. I know the risks, I know they have gone up, but I like them, I like shooting them, and I'm going to keep them. At least I'm honest about it, unlike you, my friend. Wink wink.

Hey cute stuff, I'm honest most of the time.

They're factoids. Like I said, most gun owners are responsible, sane and non-violent. You choose to pull up little numbers and apply it to the big picture. The big picture is what I'm focused on, like overall violent crime rates in comparison to the UK. I'm focused on the big picture, like the majority of gun owners who are responsible and safe. Having a gun for protection is a benefit for the majority of us, even if we never have to use it.

Again, if it's the little factoid risks you are concerned about, then don't buy a pool or stove. These things come with tiny little risks.

I'm admitting that the risks exist. For example, I already said that your chances of having an accident with a firearm increase greatly versus someone who doesn't own a firearm. But that is so elementary.

Like I was telling BigMatt, practice proper safety measures and don't be a moron.

Again, the only risk we responsible, law abiding folk should be concerned about is that there are violent people in the world. Be prepared. Don't make me repeat it again, because I will.

 

[chalupa]

...and your being prepared actually puts you and your family in GREATER risk. That's the whole damned point.

You need to learn to statistics, and then talk. You have a gun because they are cool, and all of your other reasons are proven factually false by the data.

 

[Devastation the Almighty]

In the end, it's all about the burgoo.

 

[HubbleBubble]

...and your being prepared actually puts you and your family in GREATER risk. That's the whole damned point.

You need to learn to statistics, and then talk. You have a gun because they are cool, and all of your other reasons are proven factually false by the data.

Yeah, I guess you're right. Owning a pool puts my family at a greater risk of drowning, but I just like it because I enjoy swimming. Risks come with everything. When did you figure out such amazing logic?

All my other points are proven false by your tiny little numbers? Chalupa, we both know I'm right and yet you just keeping trying so hard and it makes you even cuter. Seriously, you're like a little chihuahua and I just want to hug and squeeze on you all day.

 

[chalupa]

So when wriggling in the crushing grip of logic and data, you resort to insults?

I think we're done here.

 

[HubbleBubble]

So when wriggling in the crushing grip of logic and data, you resort to insults?

I think we're done here.

We've already been over the entire deal, do you want to start from the beginning and go over everything again? I'm sure we'll still disagree after it's over. You refuse to even acknowledge the fact that overall crime rates are higher in the UK, despite hardly any guns at all. If you lived in the UK and you were making the argument you are making now, you'd realize how bullshit it sounds.

I'm merely pointing out that there are many factors involved and just saying the decrease in violence is directly attributed to the decrease in guns per household is simply a factoid argument.

And I'm not insulting you, seriously. If you were my chihuahua I'd take you on long walks, give you treats, scratch you behind the ears and you could sleep with me in bed at night.

 

[chalupa]

First of all, you are so wrong it makes my head spin. There is no correlation between decrease in crime rates and decrease in gun ownership, because gun ownership is going UP and crime rates have been coming DOWN. If anything, the data might support your argument, except that correlation does not equate to causation, and the two stats have no causal link. There are many societal factors that have been studied and reported that are also factors, but again, none is the magic bullet. Secondly, gun ownership as a function of the population is going down, but those hanging onto guns are buying disproportionately more, so guns per capita is going up. None of this matters, though, because one fact overrides all of it.

Secondly, I couldn't give a shit less about England, because that is completely unrelated to our discussion.

My point, this entire time, is that you keep claiming you have a gun to make yourself safer, but the reality of the situation is that owning a gun actually has a positive correlation to being more dangerous for you and your family. You keep claiming the need to "be prepared" against some unknown assailant, but in doing so, you are actually doing the opposite.

Edit: it is the illusion of control that is the opiate of the masses.

 

[HubbleBubble]

First of all, you are so wrong it makes my head spin. There is no correlation between decrease in crime rates and decrease in gun ownership, because gun ownership is going UP and crime rates have been coming DOWN. If anything, the data might support your argument, except that correlation does not equate to causation, and the two stats have no causal link. There are many societal factors that have been studied and reported that are also factors, but again, none is the magic bullet. Secondly, gun ownership as a function of the population is going down, but those hanging onto guns are buying disproportionately more, so guns per capita is going up. None of this matters, though, because one fact overrides all of it.

Secondly, I couldn't give a shit less about England, because that is completely unrelated to our discussion.

My point, this entire time, is that you keep claiming you have a gun to make yourself safer, but the reality of the situation is that owning a gun actually has a positive correlation to being more dangerous for you and your family. You keep claiming the need to "be prepared" against some unknown assailant, but in doing so, you are actually doing the opposite.

Edit: it is the illusion of control that is the opiate of the masses.

I already looked into the more recent Gallop poll that shows gun ownership rates are highest since 1993. I can imagine that it has increased with the Obama scare and people rushing to buy guns out of fear. I admit that I briefly researched this during our discussion here (because I realized it would help my argument greatly if it could be shown that guns per household actually increased over the years), but to my disappointment, I concluded that guns per household has actually fallen (with only an increase in recent years) and violent crime has also decreased dramatically since the 1990's, according to the FBI and Justice Department statistics.

So listen, I'm willing to admit these things. But it doesn't mean a damn thing when the majority of gun owners are responsible, safe, sane and non-violent people. The possibility of something bad happening as a result of owning a gun is real, and I have already admitted a thousand times to you that there is a risk involved, and I've already explained my thoughts on that. What more do you want me to do?

Seriously, let's calm down and give each other a hug and just see where it leads.

 

[chalupa]

*puts on robe and wizard hat*

Maybe I'm having a sort of uber-argument against all the bullshit rhetoric of the NRA, et al, using you as a proxy.

Every stat shows that guns are just a more dangerous form of everything, and the argument that they make us safer is, from every angle, patently false. Actuarially, cost-benefit...every way we slice it, risks go up. I readily cede these are small numbers, and I'll also cede that you might not be a retard with yours; I certainly am not with mine. However, it is the same thing with pit bulls: regardless of the individual owner and the way they are handled, the statistics show that pit bulls are still more prone to aggression than other breeds.

I just want a politician to get up there and say, "you know what? It says it right here in the Constifuckingtution: right to bear arms. It's not worded very clearly, what with the well-regulated militia part and the sentence fragment, but until someone comes along and sorts that out, let's just be honest. Let's just say that we like guns, we want guns, and we are going to keep our guns. We don't have to run around taking over restaurants with semi-automatic rifles to prove some kind of point, or allow a relatively small organization by membership dictate national policy. Nope. Let's just say that we like them, we want them, and we are going to keep having them unless the whole country gets together and writes up an amendment that retracts this other amendment. Cool? Cool. Now, let's solve some major fucking problems in this bitch like 'defense' policy that is actually 'offense' policy and a tax code that is complete horseshit."

I'd vote for me.

 

[Brian]

get a brain morans

 

[Devastation the Almighty]

I see a St. Louis Cardinals t-shirt. Possibly a relative of ttt?

 

[Nefarious]

guns are good because we can shoot people like chalua in his fat blad face

 

[HubbleBubble]

*puts on robe and wizard hat*

Maybe I'm having a sort of uber-argument against all the bullshit rhetoric of the NRA, et al, using you as a proxy.

Every stat shows that guns are just a more dangerous form of everything, and the argument that they make us safer is, from every angle, patently false. Actuarially, cost-benefit...every way we slice it, risks go up. I readily cede these are small numbers, and I'll also cede that you might not be a retard with yours; I certainly am not with mine. However, it is the same thing with pit bulls: regardless of the individual owner and the way they are handled, the statistics show that pit bulls are still more prone to aggression than other breeds.

I just want a politician to get up there and say, "you know what? It says it right here in the Constifuckingtution: right to bear arms. It's not worded very clearly, what with the well-regulated militia part and the sentence fragment, but until someone comes along and sorts that out, let's just be honest. Let's just say that we like guns, we want guns, and we are going to keep our guns. We don't have to run around taking over restaurants with semi-automatic rifles to prove some kind of point, or allow a relatively small organization by membership dictate national policy. Nope. Let's just say that we like them, we want them, and we are going to keep having them unless the whole country gets together and writes up an amendment that retracts this other amendment. Cool? Cool. Now, let's solve some major fucking problems in this bitch like 'defense' policy that is actually 'offense' policy and a tax code that is complete horseshit."

I'd vote for me.

The truth of the matter is that there were only around 600 unintentional fatalities involving firearms in 2011. Record keeping of this statistic began in 1903 and has been decreasing ever since (due to the decrease in guns per household? Who knows? Who cares?). You said that risks go up with everything involving guns, but actually, you are far more likely to be injured playing a a random sport such as football or volleyball than you are hunting. And I can pull up that statistic if you want it. And I feel like a dipshit even talking about such little factoid numbers, but you seem to like to jerk off to this kind of stuff.

Everything I've said more than eliminates the little factoid problem you are concerned about, and that is being a safe, responsible and law abiding gun owner, and MOST OF US ARE. Therefore the problem has already been eliminated within the lives of the HUGE majority. That includes me and my family. Therefore, only the benefits are left. Some asshole using a gun to kill his family doesn't apply to me, personally. Yet, the statistics must include people like him.

It's the irresponsible, unstable, crazy element of society that happen to own guns and are using them simply because they are the most effect tool available to carry out their craziness. Again, more people per capita are butchered with knives in the UK, simply because knives are the most effective tool available where they live. There are people just like you in England who are making the same ridiculous argument that owning a knife in your home presents a greater risk of violence. Give me a fucking break, chalupa. Is this really the type of person you are? I can hear you now with an English accent talking about the presence of a knife increases the risk of violence. So what? Fuck it and move on.

Where I really run into problems with your argument is with the fact that most people are safe, law abiding gun owners. The "higher risks" you are talking can only be put into perspective by talking about a pool presenting a greater risk of drowning, and stairs in your house presenting a greater risk of falling. It's so elementary that it's not even worth a minute of discussion, and yet you are making a huge deal out of it.

It's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain that if you are in a relationship, you are more likely to be a victim of violence perpetrated by your own partner than by a stranger. And this problem goes beyond just firearms. Guns are used merely because they are the most effective tool in getting the job done. Your point?? If you lived in England, then a knife would suddenly replace the gun as the biggest risk. Your point????

Again, so elementary, chalupa. Seriously!

The fact that I have sat here with you and spent this much time going over this issue only shows that we are both fucking morons, with you being the dumbest of the two for leading us both into this discussion. Or maybe I'm the dumbest for continuing to engage in it? Seriously, tell me I'm being trolled? I'm only here because you make me horny.