House Republicans can eat a Dick.

[FenderBender]

The intent of our system is not to allow the challenge of laws by refusing to fund the budget in order to block them.

Congress passed a bill, it was signed into law by the president, and SCOTUS ruled that it was not constitutional. So yeah, what they are doing is "legal" but that is not how the process is supposed to work. If this behavior becomes commonplace then the stability of our entire government is threatened. Imagine a shutdown occurring every year over the controversial law du jour.

Where does it say this is not how the system is supposed to work? Congress passed a bill approving the ACA; why can't they pass a bill delaying the ACA?

 

[chalupa]

Where does it say this is not how the system is supposed to work? Congress passed a bill approving the ACA; why can't they pass a bill delaying the ACA?

Let the republicans construct a separate bill that defunds and delays and repeals the ACA, put it through the legislative process, and have it pass both houses and be signed by the president. Oh wait, they have tried this and failed, repeatedly. They've also challenged the constitutionality and failed, repeatedly (looking at the piecemeal challenges of one overall effort). So now they are holding the solvency of our government, the pay of millions of employees, and quite frankly, the entire world market hostage until the president caves on an already-funded-and-has-nothing-to-do-with-the-continuing-resolution health care plan.

That's why.


EDIT: I've lost 10% of the value of my stock holdings in the last two days for no other reason than the markets are "jittery" from this. Wee wee wee, first world problems, I know, but seriously, real people are affected by this bullshit they are pulling.

I'll say it again, this is going to blow up in their faces. The dems are going to make so much hay out of this that the republicans will be known as the junior party for some time. I think they may even splinter, with the extreme wing forming an official Tea Party (such a gay name), the libertarians throwing up their hands and walking out, and the moderate, business republicans being left gutted.

 

[Devastation the Almighty]

Oh yeah, the GOP is going to get some blowback from this. The only good would be the Tea Party splitting off. They're fucking insane.

 

[Nocturnal]

Where does it say this is not how the system is supposed to work? Congress passed a bill approving the ACA; why can't they pass a bill delaying the ACA?

They are trying to pass a bill to delay the ACA?

 

[chalupa]

Oh yeah, the GOP is going to get some blowback from this. The only good would be the Tea Party splitting off. They're fucking insane.

Sadly, the original Tea Party message before they were intercepted by Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman was not too bad, more libertarian than anything. Of course, that's not what they are now.

 

[Devastation the Almighty]

Yep. If they split off though, it'll open doors within the original GOP for the more moderate and more libertarian Republicans to step in, and the Tea Party will get smaller and smaller.

Or, you know, the opposite.

 

[FenderBender]

Let the republicans construct a separate bill that defunds and delays and repeals the ACA, put it through the legislative process, and have it pass both houses and be signed by the president. Oh wait, they have tried this and failed, repeatedly. They've also challenged the constitutionality and failed, repeatedly (looking at the piecemeal challenges of one overall effort). So now they are holding the solvency of our government, the pay of millions of employees, and quite frankly, the entire world market hostage until the president caves on an already-funded-and-has-nothing-to-do-with-the-continuing-resolution health care plan.

That's why.


EDIT: I've lost 10% of the value of my stock holdings in the last two days for no other reason than the markets are "jittery" from this. Wee wee wee, first world problems, I know, but seriously, real people are affected by this bullshit they are pulling.

I'll say it again, this is going to blow up in their faces. The dems are going to make so much hay out of this that the republicans will be known as the junior party for some time. I think they may even splinter, with the extreme wing forming an official Tea Party (such a gay name), the libertarians throwing up their hands and walking out, and the moderate, business republicans being left gutted.

I don't doubt it, but I don't think they care. The people pushing this through are playing the same game that got them in to power. My guess is it will keep them in power.

They are trying to pass a bill to delay the ACA?

Not trying, they did. The House has twice passed a continuing resolution that includes amendments for delaying funding of the ACA.

 

[chalupa]

I don't doubt it, but I don't think they care. The people pushing this through are playing the same game that got them in to power. My guess is it will keep them in power.

Not in power, in office. A few of them will stay elected, and be able to accomplish very little.

Not trying, they did. The House has twice passed a continuing resolution that includes amendments for delaying funding of the ACA.

Now I know you are joking. They know these amendments are dead on arrival if they were to be real bills, because they've tried that repeatedly and failed. Now they are refusing to pass clean resolutions because they've lost over and over trying it the right way.

 

[FenderBender]

Not in power, in office. A few of them will stay elected, and be able to accomplish very little.




Now I know you are joking. They know these amendments are dead on arrival if they were to be real bills, because they've tried that repeatedly and failed. Now they are refusing to pass clean resolutions because they've lost over and over trying it the right way.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. How is this different than what I said? They've passed two bills and sent them to the Senate. The Senate has passed bills with the amendment removed back to the House, and both sides have rejected the other's bill.

 

[chalupa]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. How is this different than what I said? They've passed two bills and sent them to the Senate. The Senate has passed bills with the amendment removed back to the House, and both sides have rejected the other's bill.

They have been voting in the house to dismantle, defund, remove, eliminate, bastardize, and obliterate the ACA for years, and every time a bill leaves the house it gets killed in the senate. They tried 40 times before this latest round of tacking on to the budget problem, and every time they failed.

They have failed so many times by following the course of actions as the system was designed that they have resorted to tacking it onto a budget process, even though the bill is not funded by that budget. I think you are just fucking with me now to try to get a rise, but you won't. You know the republicans have lost every single way they have tried, so now they are literally attaching it to something unrelated in order to try to force a negotiation.

The country isn't too stupid to figure this out, all it takes is a couple of talking heads explaining what is happening. This is going to kill the republicans' political stature moving forward.

 

[Frood]

They have been voting in the house to dismantle, defund, remove, eliminate, bastardize, and obliterate the ACA for years, and every time a bill leaves the house it gets killed in the senate. They tried 40 times before this latest round of tacking on to the budget problem, and every time they failed.

They have failed so many times by following the course of actions as the system was designed that they have resorted to tacking it onto a budget process, even though the bill is not funded by that budget. I think you are just fucking with me now to try to get a rise, but you won't. You know the republicans have lost every single way they have tried, so now they are literally attaching it to something unrelated in order to try to force a negotiation.

The country isn't too stupid to figure this out, all it takes is a couple of talking heads explaining what is happening. This is going to kill the republicans' political stature moving forward.

And hopefully once this gets sorted out, there will be some changes to the system, so bullshit like this can't happen again?

Congress comes to such an impasse that the government has to shut down? Time for an election. Everyone's out.

 

[chalupa]

And hopefully once this gets sorted out, there will be some changes to the system, so bullshit like this can't happen again?

Congress comes to such an impasse that the government has to shut down? Time for an election. Everyone's out.

I agree. Simply put, riders are horseshit, and line item veto has been deemed unconstitutional. New procedural rules maybe? I don't know, but tacking one thing on to another to prevent the first thing (poison pill) is just stupid.

 

[Devastation the Almighty]

No matter what happens, even when we're all fighting each other for food, I just want you to know, I still love you guys.

 

[chalupa]

No matter what happens, even when we're all fighting each other for food, I just want you to know, I still love you guys.

When that day comes, rest assured that I will track down nefarious and devour alive him piece by piece, saving the vital organs for last. I figure we can spend some quality time together.

 

[FenderBender]

They have been voting in the house to dismantle, defund, remove, eliminate, bastardize, and obliterate the ACA for years, and every time a bill leaves the house it gets killed in the senate. They tried 40 times before this latest round of tacking on to the budget problem, and every time they failed.

They have failed so many times by following the course of actions as the system was designed that they have resorted to tacking it onto a budget process, even though the bill is not funded by that budget. I think you are just fucking with me now to try to get a rise, but you won't. You know the republicans have lost every single way they have tried, so now they are literally attaching it to something unrelated in order to try to force a negotiation.

The country isn't too stupid to figure this out, all it takes is a couple of talking heads explaining what is happening. This is going to kill the republicans' political stature moving forward.

... Again, I don't disagree with anything you're saying here. My point is that congress is only doing what it is allowed to do. Congress has the power and authority to do everything you're criticizing it for. In my opinion that is evidence of a system that doesn't work. It's naive to say, "Ok congress we'll grant you this power and just trust that it won't be abused." Saying that it's the Republicans doing it is missing the forest for the trees. The next time Democrats find themselves in a situation they don't like you can be sure they will use Parliamentary tricks to get their way.

 

[Frood]

... Again, I don't disagree with anything you're saying here. My point is that congress is only doing what it is allowed to do. Congress has the power and authority to do everything you're criticizing it for. In my opinion that is evidence of a system that doesn't work. It's naive to say, "Ok congress we'll grant you this power and just trust that it won't be abused." Saying that it's the Republicans doing it is missing the forest for the trees. The next time Democrats find themselves in a situation they don't like you can be sure they will use Parliamentary tricks to get their way.

I think you and Chalupa are on the same page, but I think you're blaming the US people who elected these officials, whereas chalupa is blaming the GOP for abusing their power.

When we elect officials, it's because we TRUST that they aren't going to hold the entire government hostage for their partisan goals. Just because congress CAN do this, does not in any way mean that they SHOULD do this. What I think Chalupa is saying, is that:
1) The Tea Partyers who are responsible for this situation abused the trust of some if not most of their constituents.
2) While not breaking any laws, they will be held accountable in the next election, and while a temporarily decent move, they have midterm election next year, and they greatly diminished their parties chances of holding many seats after that.
3)The system does not work, and as soon as possible, this needs to be rectified. It should not be possible for a fringe minority to hold the government hostage like this.

It's not the fault of the people. Most people have to be rationally ignorant about the intricacies of constitutional law, because if everyone were experts, we'd be severely lacking in other areas. We had to trust that the lawmakers had either made laws that would prevent situations, and/or that the people we elected were above blackmailing the United States until they get their own way. Now we know that the laws don't protect us from this, and that our elected officials are NOT in fact above abusing the system - proving that they're unfit to govern. The system needs to be changed, and those responsible will have trouble getting re-elected after this fiasco.

 

[FenderBender]

I think you and Chalupa are on the same page, but I think you're blaming the US people who elected these officials, whereas chalupa is blaming the GOP for abusing their power.

When we elect officials, it's because we TRUST that they aren't going to hold the entire government hostage for their partisan goals. Just because congress CAN do this, does not in any way mean that they SHOULD do this. What I think Chalupa is saying, is that:
1) The Tea Partyers who are responsible for this situation abused the trust of some if not most of their constituents.
2) While not breaking any laws, they will be held accountable in the next election, and while a temporarily decent move, they have midterm election next year, and they greatly diminished their parties chances of holding many seats after that.
3)The system does not work, and as soon as possible, this needs to be rectified. It should not be possible for a fringe minority to hold the government hostage like this.

It's not the fault of the people. Most people have to be rationally ignorant about the intricacies of constitutional law, because if everyone were experts, we'd be severely lacking in other areas. We had to trust that the lawmakers had either made laws that would prevent situations, and/or that the people we elected were above blackmailing the United States until they get their own way. Now we know that the laws don't protect us from this, and that our elected officials are NOT in fact above abusing the system - proving that they're unfit to govern. The system needs to be changed, and those responsible will have trouble getting re-elected after this fiasco.

1) I don't think that this is true. I think that the people who elected the Tea Party candidates are happy to see what their representatives are doing. Self-identified tea party members think the shutdown is a good idea.
2) Unfortunately, I see hold candidates accountable meaning that more moderate representatives will be gone. The tea party is secure in their electorate. This is the same narrative for how the tea party came in to power (people were upset at the Democrat dominated branches). I don't see government being less divisive, I see it getting more divisive.
3) I think calling it the fringe minority is a mistake. Twice, there was a majority of the house able to push a CR through to the Senate. A fringe majority doesn't have that kind of clout. Both parties are playing the divisive politics game right out in the open.

Unfortunately, I think my 'solution', would be drastically less government. I agree that people don't understand the nuance of our laws, and I think that is a big part of the problem. Government being complicated makes it easier to dissemble when pressed on how effectively they're doing anything. In my opinion government should run simply enough that everyone can understand it. If you want to have nuanced arrangements you can conduct them privately with other people.

 

[BigMattTheHobo]

A fringe has that kind of clout when going against them would be seen as helping the Democrats, in this case.


Moderate Republicans are kind of fucked by the tea party. They can't really disagree, or our shitty media would play it as helping the left.

Basically the tea party is the loudest portion of the GOP right now, and their views are pushed by talk radio and fox news.

 

[Frood]

3) I think calling it the fringe minority is a mistake. Twice, there was a majority of the house able to push a CR through to the Senate. A fringe majority doesn't have that kind of clout. Both parties are playing the divisive politics game right out in the open.

1) Their constituents did not all vote for them. Lots of them got their positions to due to gerrymandering, and I'm sure they've lost at least some of their support from voters. Because of the two party system, some moderate repubs would rather vote for a Tea partyer than a moderate to extreme liberal. Because of the recklessness the GOP has exhibited, some of the votes are likely to swing the other way in the next election, which is all it will take to flip the house back to a dem majority.
2) I don't think that there's any chance that this is going to increase the number of Tea Party voters. I think that the moderate republicans will be replaced by moderate democrats more often than by Tea Partyers. If you didn't vote for the Tea Party last election, I don't think these actions by the far right are going to claim MORE votes for them. So you're right that it will widen the divide in congress, but we'll have more moderate dems rather than moderate reps, and overall the republican party is going to be more right wing, but smaller.
3) It's estimated that the Dems + Moderats Reps have enough votes to get a clean bill passed and end the shut-down, but Boehner won't let the vote happen because it would piss off the fringe minority. Fringe because they are on the far right of the American political spectrum, and minority because they would lose the vote if it happened. I stand by the statement.

 

[chalupa]

Fringe might be a little much...they do have a couple millions supporters across the country. However, extreme is wholly appropriate.

I like minority faction of the minority party.

Also, Boehner is a dick for sacrificing the people to maintain his political office. He could push through clean bill and fix this, but then he'd get dumped by the extremists. So, he has caved.

He could do the best thing, push it through, be hailed as a great statesman and lose the speakership or his primary. Then he could make a ton of money onto the lecture circuit later.